Ask Svensken

[foobar]

Yes.

I'd say, not really. I know several quite sane "engineering greens." Their presence is almost exclusively limited to the communal level, though. While Helsinki has quite a share of green loonies, neighbouring Espoo (which politicians in Helsinki would want to swallow) has mostly these "engineering greens." This difference probably stems from greens in Helsinki usually studying at University of Helsinki which is strongly humanistic, and that greens in Espoo have often studied in engineering schools of Aalto University (earlier known as Helsinki University of Technology, although it has been located in Espoo for half a century).

Unfortunately green engineers have capability to convert to humanist greens especially in higher positions, but not really vice versa.

[Svensken]

Inte är de finska och svenska gröna enbart fullständigt befriade av all normal vett och reson utan somliga är även gifta med varandra. Eller åtminstone har de varit. Hittar ingen intresse i utopiska världsfantasier.

I have tried to talk to these kind of people many times, but even when they admit that they are wrong in their opinions or world views they simply state "But I want to believe it to be this way"or "I feel bad when I try thinking in that way." They then behave like statements like these have any kind of intellectual or reasonable weight and continue with their lunacy.

How do you handle people like that?

[Svensken]

Yes.

I'd say, not really. I know several quite sane "engineering greens." Their presence is almost exclusively limited to the communal level, though. While Helsinki has quite a share of green loonies, neighbouring Espoo (which politicians in Helsinki would want to swallow) has mostly these "engineering greens." This difference probably stems from greens in Helsinki usually studying at University of Helsinki which is strongly humanistic, and that greens in Espoo have often studied in engineering schools of Aalto University (earlier known as Helsinki University of Technology, although it has been located in Espoo for half a century).

Unfortunately green engineers have capability to convert to humanist greens especially in higher positions, but not really vice versa.

These "green engineers" are they just for caring for environment and not bringing immigrants?

[Tykkimies Pönni]

Today the heads of the green party came out telling us that saying that ANY problems at all comes from immigration is evil and wrong.

It's a good sign. There are weak signs everywhere and getting stronger all the time. Slowly but steadily. Public opinion has allready reached the so called "critical mass" and it is just a matter of time when it does so among journalists.

[Uuno Nuivanen]

How do you handle people like that?

We make them ministers and high-rank civil servants.

[-PPT-]

I think that is a kind of paradox of the greens that they are in favour of environmental-protection,( who isn't?) but at the same time they are in favour of transferring thousands of people from their very low-consuming whereabouts to very high-consuming surroundings where one person consumes more than a village in the third world.

[foobar]

Yes.

I'd say, not really. I know several quite sane "engineering greens." Their presence is almost exclusively limited to the communal level, though. While Helsinki has quite a share of green loonies, neighbouring Espoo (which politicians in Helsinki would want to swallow) has mostly these "engineering greens." This difference probably stems from greens in Helsinki usually studying at University of Helsinki which is strongly humanistic, and that greens in Espoo have often studied in engineering schools of Aalto University (earlier known as Helsinki University of Technology, although it has been located in Espoo for half a century).

Unfortunately green engineers have capability to convert to humanist greens especially in higher positions, but not really vice versa.

These "green engineers" are they just for caring for environment and not bringing immigrants?

My hunch is that they're much more geared towards practical solutions to real problems than other greens, but choose mostly not to participate in immigration issues at all on their own. This, of course, shifts the decisive power in their party to those that *do* participate in the issue...

[Tykkimies Pönni]

Yes.

I'd say, not really. I know several quite sane "engineering greens." Their presence is almost exclusively limited to the communal level, though. While Helsinki has quite a share of green loonies, neighbouring Espoo (which politicians in Helsinki would want to swallow) has mostly these "engineering greens." This difference probably stems from greens in Helsinki usually studying at University of Helsinki which is strongly humanistic, and that greens in Espoo have often studied in engineering schools of Aalto University (earlier known as Helsinki University of Technology, although it has been located in Espoo for half a century).

Unfortunately green engineers have capability to convert to humanist greens especially in higher positions, but not really vice versa.

These "green engineers" are they just for caring for environment and not bringing immigrants?

My hunch is that they're much more geared towards practical solutions to real problems than other greens, but choose mostly not to participate in immigration issues at all on their own. This, of course, shifts the decisive power in their party to those that *do* participate in the issue...

In other words, they are pussies.

[foobar]

Yes.

I'd say, not really. I know several quite sane "engineering greens." Their presence is almost exclusively limited to the communal level, though. While Helsinki has quite a share of green loonies, neighbouring Espoo (which politicians in Helsinki would want to swallow) has mostly these "engineering greens." This difference probably stems from greens in Helsinki usually studying at University of Helsinki which is strongly humanistic, and that greens in Espoo have often studied in engineering schools of Aalto University (earlier known as Helsinki University of Technology, although it has been located in Espoo for half a century).

Unfortunately green engineers have capability to convert to humanist greens especially in higher positions, but not really vice versa.

These "green engineers" are they just for caring for environment and not bringing immigrants?

My hunch is that they're much more geared towards practical solutions to real problems than other greens, but choose mostly not to participate in immigration issues at all on their own. This, of course, shifts the decisive power in their party to those that *do* participate in the issue...

In other words, they are pussies.

Maybe so, but then again... often immigration policy is not - and can't be - in the inner circle of communal politics. In those matters that engineering greens participate they're vastly better than "ideological" humanist greens, which are true whackjobs. The unfortunate thing about many things in politics is, of course, that disinterest (usually due to political cow deals inside or between parties) in fields that people don't feel "their own" tends to give minority groups over-emphasized power over silent societal majority. This seems to be the prime way of making as bad immigration politics as Finland does.

[Miniluv]

Do you have "a Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian" -jokes over there? (Nationalities would maybe ordered differently, though.)

Do you think they might be replaced in future with "Finnish Mohamed, Swedish Mohamed and Norwegian Mohamed" -jokes?

[-PPT-]

Some people have analyzed the support of the green party and have come to a conclusion that about 95% of their support is within 10km from the canteen of the nearest university.

[J. Lannan haamu]

Yes.

I'd say, not really. I know several quite sane "engineering greens." Their presence is almost exclusively limited to the communal level, though. While Helsinki has quite a share of green loonies, neighbouring Espoo (which politicians in Helsinki would want to swallow) has mostly these "engineering greens." This difference probably stems from greens in Helsinki usually studying at University of Helsinki which is strongly humanistic, and that greens in Espoo have often studied in engineering schools of Aalto University (earlier known as Helsinki University of Technology, although it has been located in Espoo for half a century).

Unfortunately green engineers have capability to convert to humanist greens especially in higher positions, but not really vice versa.

Very well said. The idea of greening of society has to my mind impacted to the rising of many other fields too, such as green tourism, green food, strategic corporate environmental management, environmental sociology and psychology. Naturally environmental energy forms and cleantech are in trend too.

Very good example of 'old-school' environmentalist, environmental engineer (?) and nature philosopher, Eero Paloheimo. He has written critical stories about the impacts and motives etc. of immigration. I even printed my friends last christmas his favorite arguments towards multiculturalism and the present day green people.

In my family there are some more traditional environmental engineers too, but I am not sure about their perceptions on chaotic immigration.

[Tykkimies Pönni]

Yes.

I'd say, not really. I know several quite sane "engineering greens." Their presence is almost exclusively limited to the communal level, though. While Helsinki has quite a share of green loonies, neighbouring Espoo (which politicians in Helsinki would want to swallow) has mostly these "engineering greens." This difference probably stems from greens in Helsinki usually studying at University of Helsinki which is strongly humanistic, and that greens in Espoo have often studied in engineering schools of Aalto University (earlier known as Helsinki University of Technology, although it has been located in Espoo for half a century).

Unfortunately green engineers have capability to convert to humanist greens especially in higher positions, but not really vice versa.

These "green engineers" are they just for caring for environment and not bringing immigrants?

My hunch is that they're much more geared towards practical solutions to real problems than other greens, but choose mostly not to participate in immigration issues at all on their own. This, of course, shifts the decisive power in their party to those that *do* participate in the issue...

In other words, they are pussies.

Maybe so, but then again... often immigration policy is not - and can't be - in the inner circle of communal politics. In those matters that engineering greens participate they're vastly better than "ideological" humanist greens, which are true whackjobs. The unfortunate thing about many things in politics is, of course, that disinterest (usually due to political cow deals inside or between parties) in fields that people don't feel "their own" tends to give minority groups over-emphasized power over silent societal majority. This seems to be the prime way of making as bad immigration politics as Finland does.

In other words, they are too afraid to involve.

[Pöllämystynyt]

Inte är de finska och svenska gröna enbart fullständigt befriade av all normal vett och reson utan somliga är även gifta med varandra. Eller åtminstone har de varit. Hittar ingen intresse i utopiska världsfantasier.

I have tried to talk to these kind of people many times, but even when they admit that they are wrong in their opinions or world views they simply state "But I want to believe it to be this way"or "I feel bad when I try thinking in that way." They then behave like statements like these have any kind of intellectual or reasonable weight and continue with their lunacy.

How do you handle people like that?

Are you sure that those people are just not scared that certain ways to think might seem "racist" or "right wing", and therefore pure evil? These kinds of irrational, partially unconscious fears and prejudices are very important in defining the mental climate of entire Western world. Entire populations are shocked and scared by them, and therefore forced to support what ever poses itself as the opposite. Today what incorrectly poses itself as the opposite of imaginary "pure evil" is multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism has nothing attractive in itself, no high morality, no plausible arguments that could stand a conversation. The other options are just made to look so bad. People are mainly forced to support it or at least not to support the other options, by sheer terror caused by demonic depictions of others options. Western peoples are controlled by these fears and prejudices spread by supporters of multiculturalism. This is how multiculturalism manipulates societies.

There is only one known way to heal these people shocked and confused by fear. That fear can not get rid of (without a very long therapy), but it can be directed elsewhere. You should argue that actually racism and fascist ideas are a lot more common among muslims than critics of multiculturalism. You should also point to the fact that multiculturalism is everything evil that the person is afraid of: a racist project of eugenics that is actively attacking democracy and building a fascist state. It is also allied with conservative pathriarcal islamic nazis that love Hitler and hate Jews.

If the person you are talking to still doesn't get it, use more and more arguments like this. Ask what does (s)he think about jews, homosexuals and other minorities being attacked daily by muslim gangs and fanatics in European cities. Tell heart touching (but true) examples of antisemitic or homophobic attacks. Never speak as if defending the majority. Defend minorities. (You dont need to lie, because your ethnicity too in fact is a small indigenous minority in the EU and the world.) Defend culturally rich world where every ethnicity has the right to exist and maintain their own distinctive cultural traits, and enjoy freedom and self-governance, without anyone controlling, colonizing or assimilating them.

Also it is essential to not look and sound like pure evil yourself. Never argue in ways that make you look demonic. Never be "right wing" or a "racist", not even for the arguments sake. Be more liberal and more leftist than the person you are talking with. And be fair. Not just play it, be it. The point of this is to make it impossible for him/her to see you as "right wing" or "racist". If demonisation is even remotely possible, it will happen. Prejudices are that strong. So it must not be possible at all. A leftist liberal can not be seen "far right". A person talking directly and with a strong emotion against racism, ksenofobia, fascism and such, can not be seen as supporter of those things.

You will see this kinds of arguments are very powerful. They can not be won just by throwing in more prejudices. They destroy prejudices and may trigger a real conversation. They might make some people to act in a schizophrenic way, but some will come to their senses.

[foobar]

In other words, they are too afraid to involve.

Very much so.

[Jaakko P.]

Do you have "a Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian" -jokes over there? (Nationalities would maybe ordered differently, though.)

Do you think they might be replaced in future with "Finnish Mohamed, Swedish Mohamed and Norwegian Mohamed" -jokes?

There's no difference between the Mohameds in other nordic countries so the whole idea of making joke out of the stereotypes is lost.

[ike60]

Yes.

I'd say, not really. I know several quite sane "engineering greens." Their presence is almost exclusively limited to the communal level, though. While Helsinki has quite a share of green loonies, neighbouring Espoo (which politicians in Helsinki would want to swallow) has mostly these "engineering greens." This difference probably stems from greens in Helsinki usually studying at University of Helsinki which is strongly humanistic, and that greens in Espoo have often studied in engineering schools of Aalto University (earlier known as Helsinki University of Technology, although it has been located in Espoo for half a century).

Unfortunately green engineers have capability to convert to humanist greens especially in higher positions, but not really vice versa.

Very well said. The idea of greening of society has to my mind impacted to the rising of many other fields too, such as green tourism, green food, strategic corporate environmental management, environmental sociology and psychology. Naturally environmental energy forms and cleantech are in trend too.

Very good example of 'old-school' environmentalist, environmental engineer (?) and nature philosopher, Eero Paloheimo. He has written critical stories about the impacts and motives etc. of immigration. I even printed my friends last christmas his favorite arguments towards multiculturalism and the present day green people.
[..]

I believe that the situation within the Finnish Green party is more complex than that. There are certainly some "engineering greens", such as Paloheimo, but there are also some prominent Greens with a classical liberalistic background such as Osmo Soininvaara and Jyrki Kasvi (who might also pass for an "engineering green"). Soininvaara is a statistician, and a graduate of the University of Helsinki. It would be very strange if any (classical) liberal would utter such extremisms as "saying that ANY problems at all come from immigration is evil and wrong".

Personally I don't believe that any prominent Finnish Green would state such an extreme opinion, but of course I might be wrong. If Uuno or anybody else knows of a quotation (including who, where and when) to that effect,  please link or state your sources.

It is quite possible, though, that some prominent Finnish Greens think in that way, but are too responsible to to embarrass their party by saying that aloud. Maybe this reflects a difference between the situation in Sweden and Finland, or a difference between the Finnish and Swedish Greens.

Svensken, could you elaborate on the context in which the heads of the Green party blurted the quotation? I would also be grateful for the names of the persons and the exact quotation in Swedish - I have a hunch that this can become a classic.

[Uuno Nuivanen]

It is quite possible, though, that some prominent Finnish Greens think in that way, but are too responsible to to embarrass their party by saying that aloud. Maybe this reflects a difference between the situation in Sweden and Finland, or a difference between the Finnish and Swedish Greens.

What makes you all think that there would not be such engineer-greens in Sverigestan as well? 

[ike60]

It is quite possible, though, that some prominent Finnish Greens think in that way, but are too responsible to to embarrass their party by saying that aloud. Maybe this reflects a difference between the situation in Sweden and Finland, or a difference between the Finnish and Swedish Greens.

What makes you all think that there would not be such engineer-greens in Sverigestan as well? 

Sorry, I didn't express myself clearly. I meant that there might be some prominent Finnish Greens who think that "saying that ANY problems at all come from immigration is evil and wrong", but don't say it aloud. Such bigotry might easily be used against the Finnish Green party.

To answer your question, I don't know the Swedish Green party well enough to say anything about the existence of engineer-greens within it. Maybe Svensken has more information on this.

[Uuno Nuivanen]

This is starting to sound like what would be the right angle for your little finger when lifting the teacup..

I bluntly say; same shit, different country. 

[Svensken]

Do you have "a Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian" -jokes over there? (Nationalities would maybe ordered differently, though.)

Do you think they might be replaced in future with "Finnish Mohamed, Swedish Mohamed and Norwegian Mohamed" -jokes?

We have like norwegian and some, like "Why dont they have doors on Norwegian toilets? The dont want to take the risk of someone looking through the keay hole." Then we also have jokes like "Norsken, dansken och Bellman(Swed)." But they are not like about typical national things, just silly.

I've heard you have loads of swedish jokes?
I would love to get many of hem here, in PM or get a link to some site with swedish jokes

[Svensken]

Inte är de finska och svenska gröna enbart fullständigt befriade av all normal vett och reson utan somliga är även gifta med varandra. Eller åtminstone har de varit. Hittar ingen intresse i utopiska världsfantasier.

I have tried to talk to these kind of people many times, but even when they admit that they are wrong in their opinions or world views they simply state "But I want to believe it to be this way"or "I feel bad when I try thinking in that way." They then behave like statements like these have any kind of intellectual or reasonable weight and continue with their lunacy.

How do you handle people like that?

Are you sure that those people are just not scared that certain ways to think might seem "racist" or "right wing", and therefore pure evil? These kinds of irrational, partially unconscious fears and prejudices are very important in defining the mental climate of entire Western world. Entire populations are shocked and scared by them, and therefore forced to support what ever poses itself as the opposite. Today what incorrectly poses itself as the opposite of imaginary "pure evil" is multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism has nothing attractive in itself, no high morality, no plausible arguments that could stand a conversation. The other options are just made to look so bad. People are mainly forced to support it or at least not to support the other options, by sheer terror caused by demonic depictions of others options. Western peoples are controlled by these fears and prejudices spread by supporters of multiculturalism. This is how multiculturalism manipulates societies.

There is only one known way to heal these people shocked and confused by fear. That fear can not get rid of (without a very long therapy), but it can be directed elsewhere. You should argue that actually racism and fascist ideas are a lot more common among muslims than critics of multiculturalism. You should also point to the fact that multiculturalism is everything evil that the person is afraid of: a racist project of eugenics that is actively attacking democracy and building a fascist state. It is also allied with conservative pathriarcal islamic nazis that love Hitler and hate Jews.

If the person you are talking to still doesn't get it, use more and more arguments like this. Ask what does (s)he think about jews, homosexuals and other minorities being attacked daily by muslim gangs and fanatics in European cities. Tell heart touching (but true) examples of antisemitic or homophobic attacks. Never speak as if defending the majority. Defend minorities. (You dont need to lie, because your ethnicity too in fact is a small indigenous minority in the EU and the world.) Defend culturally rich world where every ethnicity has the right to exist and maintain their own distinctive cultural traits, and enjoy freedom and self-governance, without anyone controlling, colonizing or assimilating them.

Also it is essential to not look and sound like pure evil yourself. Never argue in ways that make you look demonic. Never be "right wing" or a "racist", not even for the arguments sake. Be more liberal and more leftist than the person you are talking with. And be fair. Not just play it, be it. The point of this is to make it impossible for him/her to see you as "right wing" or "racist". If demonisation is even remotely possible, it will happen. Prejudices are that strong. So it must not be possible at all. A leftist liberal can not be seen "far right". A person talking directly and with a strong emotion against racism, ksenofobia, fascism and such, can not be seen as supporter of those things.

You will see this kinds of arguments are very powerful. They can not be won just by throwing in more prejudices. They destroy prejudices and may trigger a real conversation. They might make some people to act in a schizophrenic way, but some will come to their senses.

You are right that they are probably scared shit for the "pure evil" I am saying.

If you get unlimited time to influence these people, of course you can change them. But Swedes don't like very long and complicated discussions especially when they creeps people out because they challenge their world view.

[Svensken]

Yes.

I'd say, not really. I know several quite sane "engineering greens." Their presence is almost exclusively limited to the communal level, though. While Helsinki has quite a share of green loonies, neighbouring Espoo (which politicians in Helsinki would want to swallow) has mostly these "engineering greens." This difference probably stems from greens in Helsinki usually studying at University of Helsinki which is strongly humanistic, and that greens in Espoo have often studied in engineering schools of Aalto University (earlier known as Helsinki University of Technology, although it has been located in Espoo for half a century).

Unfortunately green engineers have capability to convert to humanist greens especially in higher positions, but not really vice versa.

Very well said. The idea of greening of society has to my mind impacted to the rising of many other fields too, such as green tourism, green food, strategic corporate environmental management, environmental sociology and psychology. Naturally environmental energy forms and cleantech are in trend too.

Very good example of 'old-school' environmentalist, environmental engineer (?) and nature philosopher, Eero Paloheimo. He has written critical stories about the impacts and motives etc. of immigration. I even printed my friends last christmas his favorite arguments towards multiculturalism and the present day green people.
[..]

I believe that the situation within the Finnish Green party is more complex than that. There are certainly some "engineering greens", such as Paloheimo, but there are also some prominent Greens with a classical liberalistic background such as Osmo Soininvaara and Jyrki Kasvi (who might also pass for an "engineering green"). Soininvaara is a statistician, and a graduate of the University of Helsinki. It would be very strange if any (classical) liberal would utter such extremisms as "saying that ANY problems at all come from immigration is evil and wrong".

Personally I don't believe that any prominent Finnish Green would state such an extreme opinion, but of course I might be wrong. If Uuno or anybody else knows of a quotation (including who, where and when) to that effect,  please link or state your sources.

It is quite possible, though, that some prominent Finnish Greens think in that way, but are too responsible to to embarrass their party by saying that aloud. Maybe this reflects a difference between the situation in Sweden and Finland, or a difference between the Finnish and Swedish Greens.

Svensken, could you elaborate on the context in which the heads of the Green party blurted the quotation? I would also be grateful for the names of the persons and the exact quotation in Swedish - I have a hunch that this can become a classic.

Nice your greens have some kind of feeling for dignity any way. Sweden is a full time circus and a big joke!

[Svensken]

It is quite possible, though, that some prominent Finnish Greens think in that way, but are too responsible to to embarrass their party by saying that aloud. Maybe this reflects a difference between the situation in Sweden and Finland, or a difference between the Finnish and Swedish Greens.

What makes you all think that there would not be such engineer-greens in Sverigestan as well? 

Sorry, I didn't express myself clearly. I meant that there might be some prominent Finnish Greens who think that "saying that ANY problems at all come from immigration is evil and wrong", but don't say it aloud. Such bigotry might easily be used against the Finnish Green party.

To answer your question, I don't know the Swedish Green party well enough to say anything about the existence of engineer-greens within it. Maybe Svensken has more information on this.

I know to little about the composition of the Green party, but now days they care little for the environment. They simply want massive immigration and have supported the now ruling right-wing government in the economic policies and just having ONE DEMAND. And this demand if of course is continuing massive immigration. 

[foobar]

Nice your greens have some kind of feeling for dignity any way. Sweden is a full time circus and a big joke!

Individuals are capable of having dignity. Organizations, especially parties, not so often. Organizations don't have soul which makes it hard maintain dignity. And higher one gets in an established organization, less soul (s)he tends to have left, because someone else will get there otherwise. In my opinion this applies to Finnish greens quite well.

[Svensken]

Ulkopuolinen:
I really like your spirit when it comes to the oppressors in media and politics.

Very interesting to learn about "the big guns"

Some people here in Sweden call the Swedish variant of "Democracy" for "Demokratur".

[-PPT-]

I've heard that despite the rapidly rising population the remote northern areas of Sweden are losing population fast. Even that has been used as an excuse for receiving more and more immigrants. As if those immigrants were willing to live somewhere in the middle of forests if they can easily live in the cosmopolitan atmosphere of Stockholm or Göteborg.

[Svensken]

I've heard that despite the rapidly rising population the remote northern areas of Sweden are losing population fast. Even that has been used as an excuse for receiving more and more immigrants. As if those immigrants were willing to live somewhere in the middle of forests if they can easily live in the cosmopolitan atmosphere of Stockholm or Göteborg.

As I understand it there is a huge urbanisation going on in the north of Sweden. Almost all smaller communes are having huge economic and demographic problems. The bigger ones grows bigger on the expense on the small ones. And in a generation the forest inland communes will be all gone.

[Tabula Rasa]

Could you told about swedish schools and pre-schools sexual-neutral education? What kind of methods they use to grow pupils? Boys in pink dresses and girls with lorrys or what's going on in swedish schools?     

[Spesialisti]

Do you have "a Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian" -jokes over there? (Nationalities would maybe ordered differently, though.)

Do you think they might be replaced in future with "Finnish Mohamed, Swedish Mohamed and Norwegian Mohamed" -jokes?

We have like norwegian and some, like "Why dont they have doors on Norwegian toilets? The dont want to take the risk of someone looking through the keay hole." Then we also have jokes like "Norsken, dansken och Bellman(Swed)." But they are not like about typical national things, just silly.

I've heard you have loads of swedish jokes?
I would love to get many of hem here, in PM or get a link to some site with swedish jokes

There is a stereotype of Swedish men being sort of gayish by their metrosexual appearance. Many jokes are about that.

Examples:
- Two Swedish couples were bored with their sex lives and decided to do some partner swinging. They got together and did what they planned to do in separate rooms. During the session one of the women started wondering aloud: "I wonder how the boys are doing?"

- Why there is always one man and woman officer in a Swedish police car? To avoid workplace romances.

- Pekka had been on short trip in Stockholm and so totally drunk he didn't remember anything of it. One thing he mentioned: It's strange that you only get a headache after memory loss drinking anywhere except Sweden, there you get aching ass as well..