2013-12-10 France: Philosopher Finkielkraut: 'There Is a Clash of Civilization'

[chacha2]

Der Spiegel on haastatellut Alain Finkielkrautia:

Alain Finkielkraut 64, was born in Paris, the son of a Jewish man of Polish origin -- a dealer of fine leather goods who survived Auschwitz. Today he is widely seen as a leading voice among French conservatives, as a critic of the modern age and a defender of the ideals of the French Republic. He teaches philosophy at the Ecole Polytechnique in Paris.

Alain Finkielkraut is one of France's most controversial essayists. His new book, "L'Identité Malheureuse" ("The Unhappy Identity," Éditions Stock ), has been the subject of heated debate. It comes at a time when France finds itself in the midst of an identity crisis. But rather than framing things from a social or political perspective, Finkielkraut explores what he sees as a hostile confrontation between indigenous French people and immigrants. He was interviewed in his Parisian apartment on the Left Bank.

Tässä itse haastattelu, ensimmäinen osa  'There Is a Clash of Civilizations'':

SPIEGEL: Mr. Finkielkraut, are you unhappy with today's France?

Finkielkraut: I am pained to see that the French mode of European civilization is threatened. France is in the process of transforming into a post-national and multicultural society. It seems to me that this enormous transformation does not bring anything good.

SPIEGEL: Why is that? Post-national and multicultural sounds rather promising.

Finkielkraut: It is presented to us as the model for the future. But multiculturalism does not mean that cultures blend. Mistrust prevails, communitarianism is rampant -- parallel societies are forming that continuously distance themselves from each other.

SPIEGEL: Aren't you giving in here to the right-wingers' fears of demise?

Finkielkraut: The lower middle classes -- the French that one no longer dares to call Français de souche (ethnic French) -- are already moving out of the Parisian suburbs and farther into the countryside. They have experienced that in some neighborhoods they are the minority in their own country. They are not afraid of the others, but rather of becoming the others themselves.

SPIEGEL: But France has always been a country of immigrants.

Finkielkraut: We are constantly told that immigration is a constitutive element of the French identity. But that's not true. Labor migration began in the 19th century. It was not until after the bloodletting of World War I that the borders were largely opened.

SPIEGEL: Immigration has had more of a formative influence on France than on Germany.

Finkielkraut: Immigration used to go hand-in-hand with integration into French culture. That was the rule of the game. Many of the new arrivals no longer want to play by that rule. If the immigrants are in the majority in their neighborhoods, how can we integrate them? There used to be mixed marriages, which is crucial to miscegenation. But their numbers are declining. Many Muslims in Europe are re-Islamizing themselves. A woman who wears the veil effectively announces that a relationship with a non-Muslim is out of the question for her.

SPIEGEL: Aren't many immigrants excluded from mainstream society primarily for economic reasons?

Finkielkraut: The left wanted to resolve the problem of immigration as a social issue, and proclaimed that the riots in the suburbs were a kind of class struggle. We were told that these youths were protesting against unemployment, inequality and the impossibility of social advancement. In reality we saw an eruption of hostility toward French society. Social inequality does not explain the anti-Semitism, nor the misogyny in the suburbs, nor the insult "filthy French." The left does not want to accept that there is a clash of civilizations.

SPIEGEL: The anger of these young people is also stirred up by high unemployment. They are turning their backs on society because they feel excluded.

Finkielkraut: If unemployment is so high, then immigration has to be more effectively controlled. Apparently there is not enough work for everyone. But just ask the teachers in these troubled neighborhoods -- they have major difficulties teaching anything at all. Compared to the rappers and the dealers, the teachers earn so ridiculously little that they are viewed with contempt. Why should the students make an effort to follow in their footsteps? There are a large number of young people who don't want to learn anything about French culture. This refusal makes it harder for them to find work.

SPIEGEL: These neighborhoods that you speak of, have you even seen them firsthand?

Finkielkraut: I watch the news; I read books and studies. I have never relied on my intuition.

SPIEGEL: In the US the coexistence of communities works better. The Americans don't have this European adherence to a national uniform culture.

Finkielkraut: The US sees itself as a country of immigration, and what is impressive about this truly multicultural society is the strength of its patriotism. This was particularly evident after the attacks of September 11, 2001. In France, however, the opposite could be seen after the attacks on French soldiers and Jewish children in Toulouse and Montauban last year: Some schoolchildren saw Mohamed Merah, the assailant, as a hero. Something like that would be unthinkable in the US. American society is a homeland for everyone. I don't think that many children of immigrants here see it that way.

SPIEGEL: America makes it easy for new arrivals to feel like Americans. Does France place the hurdles too high?

Finkielkraut: France prohibits students from wearing headscarves at school. This is also for the benefit of all Muslims who don't want a religious cage for themselves, for their daughters and wives. France is a civilization, and the question is what it means to participate in it. Does this mean the natives have to make themselves extremely small so the others can easily spread themselves out? Or does it mean passing on the culture that one possesses?

SPIEGEL: But this has worked for a long time. The Italians, Spaniards, Poles and European Jews had no difficulties becoming French patriots. Why is this no longer working?

Finkielkraut: Why is there today such aggression toward the West in the Islamic world? Some say that France was a colonial power, which is why those who were colonized could not be happy. But why has Europe been subjected to this massive immigration from former colonies over the past half a century? France still has to pay for the sins of colonialism and settle its debt to those who vilify it today.

SPIEGEL: You yourself are the child of immigrants, the progeny of a persecuted family. Does your personal will to integrate explain your radical commitment to the values of the Republic?

Finkielkraut: I defend these values because I probably owe more to my schooling than do the Français de souche, the hereditary French. French traditions and history were not laid in my cradle. Anyone who does not bring along this heritage can acquire it in l'école républicaine, the French school system. It has expanded my horizons and allowed me to immerse myself in French civilization.

SPIEGEL: And made you into its apologist?

Finkielkraut: I can speak and write more openly than others precisely because I am not a hereditary Frenchman. The natives easily allow themselves to be unnerved by the prevailing discourse. I don't have such complexes.

SPIEGEL: How do you define this French civilization that you speak of?

Finkielkraut: I recently reread a book by the admirable Russian writer Isaac Babel. The story takes place in Paris. The narrator is in a hotel and at night he hears the lovemaking sounds of the couples next door. Babel writes: This has nothing to do with what one hears in Russia -- it's much more fiery. Then his French friend responds: We French created women, literature and cuisine. No one can take that from us.

SPIEGEL: Those are idealized clichés that nations create for themselves.

Finkielkraut: But it is true, or at least it was in the past. France can't allow itself to bask in its own glory. But it has evidence of its civilization, just like Germany -- it has its sights, its squares, its cafés, its wealth of literature and its artists. We can be proud of these ancestors, and we have to prove that we are worthy of them. I regret that Germany -- for reasons that are understandable -- has broken with this pride in its past. But I believe that German politicians who speak of Leitkultur -- the guiding national culture -- are right. The Leitkultur does not create an insurmountable barrier to newcomers.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-french-philosopher-finkielkraut-on-muslims-and-integration-a-937404.html

Osa 2, ''This Has Nothing to Do With Aggression.'  löytyy taas täältä http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-french-philosopher-finkielkraut-on-muslims-and-integration-a-937404-2.html

Lyhyt ote siitä:

SPIEGEL: How do you view the political rise of Marine Le Pen and her far-right National Front party?

Finkielkraut: This disturbs me, of course. But the National Front would not be continuously on the rise if it had not discarded the old issues of the extreme right. Nowadays the National Front focuses on secularism and the republic.

SPIEGEL: That sounds as if you could imagine voting for the party.

Finkielkraut: No, I would never do that because this party appeals to people's base instincts and hatred. And these are easy to kindle among its supporters. We can't leave these issues to the National Front. It would also be up to the left, the party of the people, to take seriously the suffering and anxiety of ordinary people.

Minusta nämä kommentit kertoivat myös tärkeitä asioita nykytilasta:

7. Half-cooked
l_p 12/07/2013
Someone who is disturbed by the rise of the Front National has obviously not understood that problems need solutions. Not just academic description.

..

9. 'Clash of Civilizations'
laocoon837 12/08/2013
Finkielkraut has much too rosy a view of America. There are a large number of people who quite vocally sympathize with the likes of Merah. Right after 9/11, I saw some neighborhoods where every door had a flag flying; some neighborhoods had zero; it was purely an ethnic thing. I heard a guy on the National Press Club radio broadcast rejoice that America was getting what it deserved: I called a friend to have them listen and verify that I wasn't hearing some sort of parody. They were equally horrified. At Georgetown parties, I've had famous "thought leaders" declare to my face that every single problem anywhere in the world traces back to America's uniquely evil influence: "Everywhere in the world, America is *the* problem." I've asked my middle eastern immigrant acquiantances to name even one good thing America has done anywhere since the end of WWII - and the response was a half dozen silent faces. Just like Finkielkraut: "I watch the news; I read books and studies." But I also go out of my way to talk with the people those books and studies are about (even in parts of town where I need bring black friends to stay safe). Life is a lot different outside the intellecutals' bubble.

[chacha2]

Sivilisaatioiden yhteentörmäys?
Onkohan tässä väitteessä mitään perää?

Ranskan hallitus ainakin haluaa ja yrittää säilyttää Ranskaa sekuläärinä maana mutta  kaikki eivät tätä pyrkimystä arvosta:

French ban on Islamic veil goes on trial

Published: 11 Dec 2013 08:31 GMT+01:00
Updated: 11 Dec 2013 08:31 GMT+01:00


A key trial begins in France on Wednesday when a lawyer for a young woman, whose arrest for wearing a full-face veil sparked riots in a Paris suburb, will challenge the legality of the country's ban on wearing the Islamic face-covering in public.

The court in Versailles, outside Paris, will hear arguments from the lawyer of Cassandra Belin, 20, that the ban on the veil - in place since 2011 - is discriminatory and unconstitutional but she will shun the hearing.

"She does not want to be wrongly perceived  as the symbol of a supposed rampant Islamisation," Belin's lawyer Philippe Bataille said.

Belin, who converted to Islam at the age of 15, was stopped by police in the gritty town of Trappes west of Paris on July 18 - during the Muslim Ramadan fasting period - for wearing the veil in public.

An altercation ensued and her husband Michael Khiri was arrested, accused of insulting a police officer.

He was later found guilty and got a three-month suspended sentence. The incident sparked riots in Trappes, which has a large immigrant population.

The ensuing violence drew hundreds of protestors. They set fire to bins, destroyed bus stops and hurled stones at police.

Belin went on trial in October for defying the ban and insulting a police officer but her lawyer launched a constitutional challenge and the Versailles court postponed the case to Wednesday to consider defence claims that the charges are unconstitutional.

Bataille says the ban impinges on freedom of religion, of movement and goes against human dignity.

The controversial ban on garments that cover the face was introduced on the ground that French authorities say the law is needed to protect the country's secular traditions and for security reasons.

But many then interpreted it as a sign targeting Islamic veils, arguing that helmets worn by motorcyclists also covered the face.

Belin has admitted telling the police officers to "shut up" but denied saying "Allah will exterminate you."

In a parallel case, one of the three officers involved in the incident is being investigated for using Islamophobic language on Facebook and for "inciting hatred and racial discrimination."

Belin's lawyer has also said that identity checks were being misused by some police officers to harrass veiled women.

But the police officers' lawyer Thibault de Montbrial said that a "small group of radical elements were testing the institutions" of the French Republic, which is officially secular, under the guise of religious freedom.

The case of Belin is not the only legal challenge to France's controversial ban on the full-face veil in public. Earlier this month European judges heard the case of a 23-year-old French woman who claims the country's highly contentious ban on full-face veils violates her rights.

The Strasbourg-based European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) heard arguments in the case brought by a plaintiff known only by her initials SAS, with a ruling expected in early 2014.

French authorities say the law is needed to protect the country's secular traditions and for security reasons.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20131211/frances-ban-on-islamic-veil-goes-on-trial boldaukset omat

Onnistuuko hallitus pyrkimyksessään? Se jää nähtäväksi.
On kuitenkin selvä jo nyt ettei yhteiselo ole sujunut ongelmitta Ranskassa.
Entäs tulevaisuus?
Kuten Finkielkraut sanoi Der Spiegelille:

Optimism would seem a bit ridiculous these days. I wish the politicians were able to speak the truth and look reality in the face. Then, I believe, France would be capable of a true awakening -- of contemplating a policy of civilization.

Toivotaan että näin tapahtuu, myös muualla kuin Ranskassa.

[Puolinuiva]

SPIEGEL: That sounds as if you could imagine voting for the party.

Finkielkraut: No, I would never do that because this party appeals to people's base instincts and hatred. And these are easy to kindle among its supporters. We can't leave these issues to the National Front. It would also be up to the left, the party of the people, to take seriously the suffering and anxiety of ordinary people.

Sitä meilläkin on ihmetelty. Miksei normaaleista puolueista löydy ymmärrystä tavallisen ihmisen huolille ja kokemuksille? Euroopassa lähinnä vanhat natsipuolueet tai uusnatsien perilliset pitävät maahanmuuttoon liittyviä haittailmiöitä keskustelun arvoisina. Tavallaan sitä iloitsee vaikka FN:n ja SD:n kannatuslukemista, mutta samalla miettii, että mitähän porukkaa sieltä oikeasti löytyy. Jo persuista löytyy tasaisin väliajoin täysiä lihapäitä, niin miten sitten jossain puolueessa, jonka juuret ovat ihan oikeassa natsismissa.

Sarastuksessa oli artikkeli, jossa nuori vihainen mies kertoo sukupolvestaan, identitaareista. Minulla ja varmaan monilla muillakin yli kolmekymppisellä on pidäkkeitä äänestää uusnatseja tai muita ekstrimistejä, mutta onko näillä nuorilla? Ranskassa FN on nuorten keskuudessa suositumpi kuin keskusta-oikeisto ja lähes tasoissa sosialistien kanssa. En osaa sanoa onko FN:n suosio hyvä vai huono asia, mutta radikaalimpaan asenneilmastoon ollaan mielestäni menossa.



Finkielkraut mielestäni kuvaa hyvin sitä, mikä nykymuotoisessa maahanmuuttossa on pielessä. Maahanmuuttajat eivät tule enää osaksi ranskalaista yhteiskuntaa, vaan tuovat oman yhteiskuntansa Ranskaan.

A woman who wears the veil effectively announces that a relationship with a non-Muslim is out of the question for her.

Ja sitten ihmetellään, kun valtaväestö ei koe näitä muslimeja ranskalaisiksi. Kumma juttu.